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Post by notquite1 on Nov 10, 2020 21:10:42 GMT
Hi everyone,
First off, I didn't have in mind a PUA forum for this sort of question but I don't want to chance upon her seeing this question anywhere else. So I just want to make clear, my goal here is a relationship, not getting laid immediately.
I met this girl online and we really hit it off as friends with regular video calls. It turns out she lives a few hours away from me. Over several months I developed feelings for her but the vibe wasn't exactly flirty and I thought she only saw me as a friend. Until one day she told me she loves me. I told her I love her too. Which I do. Sadly, even though we're both adults, due to her family issues we have to meet in secret and only for a couple hours.
I'm very inexperienced, and this will be the first real date I've been on that I can see leading to a good relationship. And while emotionally, we are really close, because it'll be our first real meeting we obviously aren't physically close yet at all. We also haven't talked dirty or had sexual banter, for the most part. It's been romantic and fun rather than sexual. She is emotionally comfortable with me, but not yet physically comfortable. I also know that she really doesn't like it when guys are too dirty in their speech sexually, at least definitely not at the first date level.
Because of the secrecy issue, we're going to have a picnic. Here come the questions...
- For reasons that I respect but don't want to talk about here, she doesn't like being touched without being asked for consent first because she'd freak out. What sort of thing could I say to ask for a kiss?
- While it's easier to ask for a kiss, what do I do about the brief touching that is a normal part of flirting? Touching a girl on the arm while telling a joke isn't something you can really ask consent for. So what's my best option here? How could we get to the point where she's comfortable enough for a kiss without much physical contact berforehand? Or, how could I check consent for light physical contact without ruining the moment?
- I'm not an experienced kisser, and this is a first date, so I'm guessing I should avoid tongue?
- I know this probably seems like such a dumb noob question. But because of the picnic my breath will probably smell by the time we (if it goes well) kiss. Swallowing a mint after lunch just seems like an awkward thing to do. Like yes she will already know I want to kiss her but it just seems kind of embarrassing to have a mint. Am I overreacting? Is there any better way to do this lol
So, I would HUGELY appreciate any help with these questions. Thanks in advance for any responses!
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Post by JackZero on Nov 10, 2020 21:45:17 GMT
The problem is that you know way too much about her and it's putting you into a place of being too scared to act. If she LOVES you, she'll forgive you for a touch without asking permission. If she LOVES you, she will accept a kiss from you. If she LOVES you she won't mind the tongue as long as it is appropriate for the environment you're in.
Quit overthinking, have a mint and offer her one too.
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Post by notquite1 on Nov 10, 2020 22:08:58 GMT
The problem is that you know way too much about her and it's putting you into a place of being too scared to act. If she LOVES you, she'll forgive you for a touch without asking permission. If she LOVES you, she will accept a kiss from you. If she LOVES you she won't mind the tongue as long as it is appropriate for the environment you're in. Quit overthinking, have a mint and offer her one too. Here's the thing. I kind of know you're right about the overthinking. Especially about the mint thing lol. So thanks for that because it's what I needed. But she specifically told me this, about consent. But let me clarify it. It's not so much about asking her for permission, I wrote it wrong. It's about letting her know that I'm going to touch her.
I know she loves me and of course she'd forgive me for a touch without telling her. But I also want the date to go smoothly and she did say being touched without giving consent makes her freak out. Even if it just made her uncomfortable, it would ruin the moment a tad, for both of us.
Also, part of the reason we got on so well (this is also based on what she's told me) is because I'm different to other guys she's been with in that I value her feelings, especially about something like consent. That's why I want to respect her wishes here.
So is there some middle ground here? No jazz hands ridiculousness, but some sort of things I can say just to make sure she's comfortable.
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Post by JackZero on Nov 10, 2020 23:55:35 GMT
With touch, you can get her to follow your lead. If you want to hold her hand, you put her hand out for her to grab. If you want to hug her, you open your arms and signal for her to come in. Same thing for a kiss. It's her giving consent without you asking.
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Post by GFRESH2DEF on Nov 11, 2020 0:05:26 GMT
No OP. Telling her what you're going to do, before you do it..will ruin the romantic vibe. It will be like someone sitting next to you at the movie theater..telling you about later scenes of this movie that you haven't seen yet, while you're still watching it in real time. They're kinda ruining the movie for you right? Same thing here, with this girl. Just try a little bit of touching her, here and there..and see how she reacts to it. No matter what she says, if she allows you to keep touching her (a little bit, here and there)..then it probably means that she actually likes it. Always pay attention to a girl's actions, more than what she says out of her mouth. Pay attention to what she says to a degree..but her actions, will clue you in on..what she really wants.
-G
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Post by Heywood Jablowme on Nov 11, 2020 14:36:41 GMT
Are the two of you from a strict background?
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Post by siliconmagician on Nov 11, 2020 15:39:34 GMT
Are the two of you from a strict background? I wonder about their age. Today with the whole "consent at every stage" garbage she could be just young and internalized that crap. |
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Post by Heywood Jablowme on Nov 11, 2020 15:58:18 GMT
Are the two of you from a strict background? I wonder about their age. Today with the whole "consent at every stage" garbage she could be just young and internalized that crap. Good point. wtf ever happened to implied consent? Jesus do we need to start issuing a form? |
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Post by notquite1 on Nov 11, 2020 16:36:00 GMT
Just for the record my question about tongue wasn't related to consent, it was more related to my lack of experience lmao
Are the two of you from a strict background? I'm not. She is but she hates it. Good point. wtf ever happened to implied consent? Jesus do we need to start issuing a form? Oh if it wasn't for certain things that have happened to her in the past (that I don't really want to go into but I'm sure you can guess what I mean), I'm sure she would never have brought consent up to me. She implied that being touched without being told verbally brings back certain memories. I guess I should've been a bit clearer, she's been through a lot which is why I was getting hung up on this. But she's also much more comfortable with me than she's felt with anyone, so I guess I'm just overthinking this. With touch, you can get her to follow your lead. If you want to hold her hand, you put her hand out for her to grab. If you want to hug her, you open your arms and signal for her to come in. Same thing for a kiss. It's her giving consent without you asking. No OP. Telling her what you're going to do, before you do it..will ruin the romantic vibe. It will be like someone sitting next to you at the movie theater..telling you about later scenes of this movie that you haven't seen yet, while you're still watching it in real time. They're kinda ruining the movie for you right? Same thing here, with this girl. Just try a little bit of touching her, here and there..and see how she reacts to it. No matter what she says, if she allows you to keep touching her (a little bit, here and there)..then it probably means that she actually likes it. Always pay attention to a girl's actions, more than what she says out of her mouth. Pay attention to what she says to a degree..but her actions, will clue you in on..what she really wants. -G And thanks for the advice. It helps.  |
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Post by JackZero on Nov 11, 2020 17:10:38 GMT
Oh if it wasn't for certain things that have happened to her in the past (that I don't really want to go into but I'm sure you can guess what I mean), I'm sure she would never have brought consent up to me. She implied that being touched without being told verbally brings back certain memories. I guess I should've been a bit clearer, she's been through a lot which is why I was getting hung up on this. But she's also much more comfortable with me than she's felt with anyone, so I guess I'm just overthinking this. Oh wow...you just red flagged all over this paragraph. You are saying that you love a woman that has been through trauma. You feel special because she feels more comfortable with you than she's felt with anyone else. Let's add to the fact that you called yourself inexperienced and you think this FIRST real date will lead to a good relationship. I shouldn't forget to mention, you haven't spent any time in the same location with one another. OP, I'm going to warn you and you aren't going to believe my warning. You are setting yourself up for misery. You're already trying to navigate how to deal with this girl and you haven't even met her in person. You're calling it love but you haven't really experienced who she is yet. You are going to look at this as awesome in the beginning because it's all exciting and your current obstacles are just trying to get time together. However, you are still dealing with a woman who is broken. You think this consent thing from her trauma is going to be resolved because she is more comfortable with you. She likes you because you are willing to take her shit without her having to address it. You like her because you feel like her hero. When she starts seeing you as a normal guy, and she will, that's when you are going to discover who you are really dealing with. When you get tired of having to tiptoe around her trauma that's when she is going to discover who you really are. The problem is that you are making the investment because you're putting in the work to accommodate her crazy. Since you are the one making the investment and throwing the love word around so liberally, you'll be willing to make yourself miserable in order to get that feeling of being her hero for just a few moments. Then the day will come when she won't be able to see you as hero and she'll likely call it quits and look for another guy that can put a band aid on that trauma she has. |
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Post by Heywood Jablowme on Nov 11, 2020 17:22:38 GMT
Not to make lite, but it's a fact that nearly 1 in 5 women say they have been sexually assaulted in some manner. Most get past it, but they always tell you as a warning or shield. But then we're banging uglys in every position possible 10 minutes later.
Agree with her how terrible it was of uncle Phil or the UPS driver to do that. Assure her you are not like that, then proceed.
Somebody needs to take and shoulder the risk, that will never be her.
Don't let fear keep you from making a normal likely welcomed advance.
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Post by notquite1 on Nov 11, 2020 18:19:26 GMT
Oh if it wasn't for certain things that have happened to her in the past (that I don't really want to go into but I'm sure you can guess what I mean), I'm sure she would never have brought consent up to me. She implied that being touched without being told verbally brings back certain memories. I guess I should've been a bit clearer, she's been through a lot which is why I was getting hung up on this. But she's also much more comfortable with me than she's felt with anyone, so I guess I'm just overthinking this. Oh wow...you just red flagged all over this paragraph. You are saying that you love a woman that has been through trauma. You feel special because she feels more comfortable with you than she's felt with anyone else. Let's add to the fact that you called yourself inexperienced and you think this FIRST real date will lead to a good relationship. I shouldn't forget to mention, you haven't spent any time in the same location with one another. OP, I'm going to warn you and you aren't going to believe my warning. You are setting yourself up for misery. You're already trying to navigate how to deal with this girl and you haven't even met her in person. You're calling it love but you haven't really experienced who she is yet. You are going to look at this as awesome in the beginning because it's all exciting and your current obstacles are just trying to get time together. However, you are still dealing with a woman who is broken. You think this consent thing from her trauma is going to be resolved because she is more comfortable with you. She likes you because you are willing to take her shit without her having to address it. You like her because you feel like her hero. When she starts seeing you as a normal guy, and she will, that's when you are going to discover who you are really dealing with. When you get tired of having to tiptoe around her trauma that's when she is going to discover who you really are. The problem is that you are making the investment because you're putting in the work to accommodate her crazy. Since you are the one making the investment and throwing the love word around so liberally, you'll be willing to make yourself miserable in order to get that feeling of being her hero for just a few moments. Then the day will come when she won't be able to see you as hero and she'll likely call it quits and look for another guy that can put a band aid on that trauma she has. I get why you'd come to that conclusion, but she isn't broken. Having a trigger about a certain thing doesn't make you broken, she isn't broken at all. The main reason she feels comfortable with me (and I with her) isn't to do with trauma, and the trauma really doesn't play a role in this at all apart from in that issue I asked about. I don't feel like a hero, and the main reason we fell for each other was mostly to do with our personalities and sense of humour tbh. Yes, I'm having to put in the investment atm but she realises a two-way thing as if it goes well between us she's going to leave her family. She really does address her shit, in a major way. She's also taken my shit too, we listen to each other.
I also really don't have to tiptoe around things at all, in fact she's extremely hard to offend, which is rare these days.
I get that you have good intentions, but your knowledge of what's going on is limited by the limited info I posted on here, and I really don't want to get into a debate about this.
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Post by notquite1 on Nov 11, 2020 18:22:01 GMT
Not to make lite, but it's a fact that nearly 1 in 5 women say they have been sexually assaulted in some manner. Most get past it, but they always tell you as a warning or shield. But then we're banging uglys in every position possible 10 minutes later. Agree with her how terrible it was of uncle Phil or the UPS driver to do that. Assure her you are not like that, then proceed. Somebody needs to take and shoulder the risk, that will never be her. Don't let fear keep you from making a normal likely welcomed advance. Cool, thanks. Although ofc the 1 in 5 figure includes a lot of stuff that is not assault in any meaningful sense of the world, so in reality it's far lower than that. But I take your point! |
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Post by GFRESH2DEF on Nov 11, 2020 22:26:10 GMT
OP do you know what this acronym means? -----> NAWALT. It means "Not All Women Are Like That". That's what you think as of right now..with your limited experience and knowledge of women. But wait til a few years down the road..you may realize that it's actually alot more closer to "AWALT" (All Women Are Like That).
-G
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Kartel
MPUA Forum Enthusiast
Posts: 27 
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Post by Kartel on Nov 14, 2020 19:30:26 GMT
@ notquite1 : as some noticed already and if what your statements conveyed is what you wanted to convey, here you actually are dealing with a person who suffered a trauma. as JackZero said, also from my perspective you are most likely setting yourself for misery with a person like this in this stage. however, i see also a tiny possibility that things may work out for both of you if you two manage to overcome the misery period. answering to your questions: 1) this is the first vis a vis encounter of you two - this means that no matter what she told you and what you told her, you two are new to each-other until you two meet, which means that even if she told you she freaks out if touched without being notified in advance, you can still use kino to test her reactions and see it by yourself, and if it turns out that she doesn't freak out to your initial social touching then you know you can continue to escalate with that to establish more comfort while your interaction goes on 2) never ask for permission, and don't wait for "green lights" - instead what you are looking for is an absence of "red lights": while you progress (especially with kino) you want her to always feel comfortable with you, which means that you must always observe her reactions to what you are doing and proceed accordingly- if she is comfortable then you continue to escalate, otherwise you "take a few steps back" and resume from there again. 3) always look for ioi - whether active or passive (here is a list of most common ioi) - promptly recognizing the ioi allows you to be more aware at what point in your interaction you are with her and better calibrate your next step |
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